Exceeding the speed limit

[Foody]

This is not true either!!!.  If a vehicle ( and that means any vehicle) is being used for Police purposes and the duty to which it is being put would be hindered by sticking to the speed limits then the driver may exceed the limit.  That could apply to (a stated case of a police officer who was traveling in his own car but was late for Court) or a member of the public driving their own car but giving a lift to a beat bobby who has required them to assist them, 'in the name of the law' so to speak.

There are a few similar exemptions.

But for us mere mortals out on the road it is better not to take the chance in the first place.

You are quite wrong, the exemptions to speeding ONLY apply to drivers of emergency vehicles as defined and NOT private cars.

Every Police force in the country has a policy whereby even their own drivers CANNOT claim speeding exemptions unless they are qualified to do so and at varying levels of speed/ability. (And certainly not in their private cars)
They are hardly likely to jump into a private car and ask the driver to "follow that car and break the law in the process!"

I drive my own car and a "company car" (registered as an ambulance vehicle.) When driving the lease ambulance car, I can claim exemptions if attending an emergency, I cannot do the same with my private vehicle however. A complication would be that a registered "emergency vehicle" has to be insured for this purpose and all domestic insurance policies would not cover a driver exceeding the speed limit if they were unlucky enough to have an accident, and "blue light" insurance on a private vehicle would be just too prohibitive.

Can you imagine the numbers of speeding motorists who would attempt to get off speeding tickets if they could claim they were using their private cars "for ambulance purposes" taking a relative to hospital.

Speeding exemptions ONLY apply to drivers of registered emergency POLICE/FIRE/AMBULANCE/MILITARY vehicles, and by that it means that it has to be a vehicle recognised as being used for official emergency use, not some sort of half arsed temporary arrangement of convenience!

You really think that the legal system would exclude emergency services like coast guard and RNLI from speeding exemptions, but let any Tom Dick or Harry claim them in their ford KA taking auntie Flossie to hospital with her twisted ankle??

I'm not talking about Aunt Flossie going to hospital.

The 'Police Purposes' exemption is a fact. Or at least it was when I was in the job and I don't think it has changed. And it doesn't just apply to 'police' cars but to cars being used for police purposes.

If you don't believe me.......... I don't care!

It's not like I'm going to rush out and do it.  I might twist my ankle and then I'll have to wait in turn with Aunt Flossie for a proper ambulance to arrive!

[Bloke]

The other exemption able to be claimed is the ability to proceed with caution through a red light (except those guarding fire stations or level crossings)

A couple of years ago a motorist was waiting in an outside lane at a red traffic light and he saw a Police vehicle coming up behind him on blue light and sirens.

He crossed the white line against the red light and parked in front of the car waiting in the inside lane. The Police vehicle proceeded though the red light and the motorist waited for the lights to change and carried on.

Unknown to him, he triggered the red light camera and received a NIP. He contested the charge on the grounds that whilst he had technically crossed the white line, he had not proceeded through the junction and it was to let the Police vehicle through on blue lights.

He was convicted of the offence and went to appeal. His appeal failed on the grounds that for whatever altruistic reason, he committed an absolute offence and that no private motorist is able to claim exemptions to the road traffic act, unlike drivers of "emergency vehicles!"

Pretty damn sure this is wrong.

I know someone on this forum who sped through a camera to allow a blue light vehicle through, got let off due to the circumstances.

The police chasing the murderer in cheshire used a private people carrier driven by a civilian to fly about all over the countryside trying to catch him.

Do you honestly think that the driver is now recieving nips and red light tickets for trying to prevent the deaths of the public?

Nope, pretty damn sure he isn't.

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[Gasman]

The other exemption able to be claimed is the ability to proceed with caution through a red light (except those guarding fire stations or level crossings)

A couple of years ago a motorist was waiting in an outside lane at a red traffic light and he saw a Police vehicle coming up behind him on blue light and sirens.

He crossed the white line against the red light and parked in front of the car waiting in the inside lane. The Police vehicle proceeded though the red light and the motorist waited for the lights to change and carried on.

Unknown to him, he triggered the red light camera and received a NIP. He contested the charge on the grounds that whilst he had technically crossed the white line, he had not proceeded through the junction and it was to let the Police vehicle through on blue lights.

He was convicted of the offence and went to appeal. His appeal failed on the grounds that for whatever altruistic reason, he committed an absolute offence and that no private motorist is able to claim exemptions to the road traffic act, unlike drivers of "emergency vehicles!"

Pretty damn sure this is wrong.

I know someone on this forum who sped through a camera to allow a blue light vehicle through, got let off due to the circumstances.

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I have had a ticket quashed for exactly that reason in Fforestfach heading west in my car. No bugger would let me in on a dual carriageway with an ambulance on blues & twos coming up behind me, so I accelerated and got past them and pulled over. Unforunately I forgot about the camera and was snapped, and received the ticket.

I wrote back explaining the above and that if they had me on camera, then they must have had an ambulance a few seconds later.?

They wrote back and said ticket was cancelled under the circumstances. So fair play to them then. :-)

[Gasman]

I was flagged down once by a beat bobby (anyone remember them?) who needed to get to an incident quickly.
I remarked, 'Great I'll put my foot down' only to be told 'No, no need for that, please stick to the speed limit' :-(

[Foody]

Section 87 of The Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 states 'Any Vehicle'.  Being used for Police (ambulance and fire and in 2005 was amended to include Serious Organised Crime Squad use).

[pricey]

 

[Lunkhead]

Isn't that exactly what I said?

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Sorry, I misread your point to the opposite of what you meant.

Clarified now anyway.

And having used the exemption myself on the odd occassion when I was a beat bobby, I'm with Foody on this.

[123taff]

Section 87 of The Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 states 'Any Vehicle'.  Being used for Police (ambulance and fire and in 2005 was amended to include Serious Organised Crime Squad use).

Yes but it DOES NOT include privately owned cars. Unless they are registered and insured as an emergency vehicle as defined by the RT Acts}

It was written this way because most Police Fire and Ambulance vehicles are now leased and don't belong to the authorities. The act used to be written that the vehicles had to be "owned" by the body claiming exemptions. The vehicles "used for" in question still have to be registered as an emergency vehicle and insured for such use.

The Road Safety Act 2006 amends section 87 and places a further restriction on those claiming exemptions in that the person claiming the exemption MUST have received training in fast response driving, although it doesn't stop those agencies who can't claim exemptions from using blue lights within the normal parameters of driving.

   19 Exemptions from speed limits

For section 87 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (c. 27) (exemption of fire,
ambulance and police vehicles from speed limits) substitute—
“87 Exemptions from speed limits

(1) No statutory provision imposing a speed limit on motor vehicles shall
apply to any vehicle on an occasion when—

(a) it is being used for fire and rescue authority purposes or for or
in connection with the exercise of any function of a relevant
authority as defined in section 6 of the Fire (Scotland) Act 2005,
for ambulance purposes or for police or Serious Organised
Crime Agency purposes,

(b) it is being used for other prescribed purposes in such
circumstances as may be prescribed, or

(c) it is being used for training persons to drive vehicles for use for
any of the purposes mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b) above,
“RTA section 41C Breach of requirement as to
speed assessment
equipment detection device.
Sections 11 and 12(1) of this
Act.”

(2) Subsection (1) above does not apply unless the vehicle is being driven
by a person who—

(a) has satisfactorily completed a course of training in the driving
of vehicles at high speed provided in accordance with
regulations under this section, or

(b) is driving the vehicle as part of such a course.

 

Believe me, if a Police Officer jumped in your car and told you to break the speed limit and you hit and killed a pedestrian (bearing in mind he doesn't know your driving skills when he jumps in) you would both be facing a charge of manslaughter!

The "any vehicle used for tag" does NOT include some sort of temporary extension to a civilian driving their own private car.

Remember too that even a fully marked Police car, with a driver trained to T-pac class one standards has to consider withdrawal from a car chase if he/she considered the pursuit would be too dangerous to continue. You REALLY think a Police Officer is going to risk life and limb in an unmarked civilian car with a driver of unknown skills in such situations?

If you ever find yourself doing something like running a red light to let an emergency vehicle through and you get a ticket, if the authorities let you off, then that is a personal consession and you have been lucky, but just like that Manchester motorist, you have committed an absolute offence, and the authorities can and will prosecuted, just as he found. The advice the court gave him on his appeal is that he should have waited for the lights to change and then got out of the way!

[123taff]

Here is another thing to consider from section 87 in an attempt to explain the situation.

    (1) No statutory provision imposing a speed limit on motor vehicles shall
apply to any vehicle on an occasion when—

(a) it is being used for fire and rescue authority purposes   

Retained firemen are NOT permitted to fit blue lights and sirens on their privately owned cars and whilst en route to station for a "shout" they cannot claim exemptions from speeding.( altough probably they do exceed the limit whilst doing so)

Fire Officers on the other hand have lease fire cars (just like us Ambulance Officers) which are registered and insured as emergency vehicles and we can claim exemptions whilst using the vehicle as prescribed.

With your flawed logic, a mechanic attending a broken down Police car or fire appliance on a station would be able to claim exemptions, because they are driving  a vehicle "used for" .....................................but they can't.

Whilst it is probably true that retained firemen "bend the rules" in order to get to station on a shout, the Fire Service instructions and the Fire service union advice to them is not to as it is illegal!

[Foody]

Hi 123,

This is my last post on this.  You are going off the tracks a bit.  No one is talking about fitting blue lights and sirens etc.

EThe Section 87 exemption applies to the use of the vehicle and not the vehicle itself.  The original question was simply about exceeding the speed limit and not causing death by dangerous driving etc etc. 

As a former traffic cop who was tasked with enforcing Road Traffic Law and in particular speeding cases, as I said - if you don't believe me, I don't mind.........

But I can tell you from first hand experience that a vehicle being used for police purposes, but only if the use for which it was being put would be hindered by sticking to the speed limits then the speed limits can be exceeded.

There is extensive case law on the subject and many 'Stated Cases' and one that sticks in my mind was the case of a police officer who was in his own car, attending Court but was late.  He was Caught speeding and the Court accepted ( after the stated case procedure) that the exemption applied to him.

The proviso about persons trained for high speed use was a recent addition when the Serious Organised Crime Squad was added in 2005.

The mechanic attending a police breakdown couldn't give that reason that the use to which the vehicle was being used would be hindered by him sticking to the limits.

We are not talking about using Joe Bloggs car here for a car chase, but I (like Lunkhead above) have 'commandeered' cars on a number of occasions over the years when I was a beat Bobby.

As a rider to this exchange all I will say to any one caught and has proceedings pending is not to take this exchange as a guide but to seek proper legal advice.

The original question was asked, I think, in a Pub Quiz Question sort of way so with that in mind.......

I'm off for a pint.

Cheers.

[123taff]

I don't know how long ago you served, but the whole ethos has changed nowadays.

Police can indeed "commandeer" a member of the public to assist them, including by asking for a lift in their car, but believe me or not, they CANNOT tell them to exceed the speed limit and if they did the driver could not claim exemptions. (particularly if they caused an accident in which case they would be held responsible if breaking the law)

I did my class A refresher last year, and that is the current law as taught to us, not my personal interpretation of the law as read.

I think the instructors, together with the legal department that advises them should know what they are talking about.

Like I said, exceed the limit on a call in my lease car registered and insured as an ambulance car, and I can claim exemptions, but in my private car, I cannot!

MOPs definitely don't have this concession!

[Lunkhead]

I think I may surrender on this one.

Mark it on your calendars folks, it doesn't happen very often!

I've read the quoted S19 of the Road Safety Act (which as you rightly point out came in after I retired) and it does indeed seem to say that all police (and fire, ambulance) exemptions to speed limits have the prequisite of a training course.

I wonder if I could claim that I have actually done many such courses albeit a couple of years ago? 

I don't know if I'm unusual but I find this sort of thing quite interesting! 

[123taff]

...............................................
I wonder if I could claim that I have actually done many such courses albeit a couple of years ago? 

I think you would be a pretty safe bet provided your insurance would cover you!